All-Male Focus Group
This focus group is not a complete transcription. It is a detailed narrative summary with many quotes.
PARTICPANTS
- #1, male, 37 years-old, businessman, resident of Martissant, 1 child, Univ. edu
- 2, male, 27 years-old, occupation unspecified, resident of Site Soley, 0 children, Univ. edu
- 3, male, 29 years-old, occupation unspecified, resident of Site Soley, 1 child, Univ. edu
- 4, male, 22 years-old, student, resident of Martissant, 0 children, 12th grade edu.
- 5, male, 46 years-old, Artist, resident of Site Soley, 2 children, 10th grade edu.
- 6, male, 27 years-old, Student,resident of Site Soley, 0 children, Univ. edu.
- 7, male, 38 years-old, Civil Servant, resident of Belaire, 2 children, 12th grade edu.
Tim introduction. We’re doing this focus group for two professors of political science who study conflict, crime, and politics in developing countries. Their the goal is to help governments and organizations to better understand the problems of crime, the impact on people, to make recommendations and improve the system… Understand that me, Gary, Jackly, Murrielle, and Stephanie, we live here too. We have our own experiences and understanding. It’s not like the violence and problems are a secret us…. We all live or have lived in neighborhoods in Port-au-Prince. But we want you guys to share your insights and help us think this through.
Jackly: Elaborates and clarifies on what I just said and explains that a speaker must say his number first, before he speaks.
Jackly: Do you have Baz, Gang, these types of things in your neighborhood and how do you understand these terms, is there are difference?
#4: Baz and gang have something in common … but in terms of sociology, they’re different. I have lived in Martissant for 19 years. It’s an experience for me to see young people who could succeed, become artists, who have talent, but become associated with other youths in gangs who have guns… They have money. These promising youths enter in the baz, and then become a problem for the neighborhood and for society.
#3: I live in Site Soley, Soley 21, where I live we have Baz and we have Gang. They’re different. There are guys in the baz, they get up, they don’t go to work, they don’t have anything, they just go hang out, talk politics, talk sports. And then there are those in a gang. They don’t work either, but they have a gun in their hand and they look for a way to live with a gun in their hand. The difference is that there are guys who are good and those who are bad. There are those guys who when they don’t work, they relax, deal with it. But there are guys when they don’t have work, they “vary” (strange use of the word, guess he means deviate from the norm).
Tim: Asks if Baz have a name? Do they give themselves a name.
#3: Yes, they have a name.
Tim: You have multiple Baz in your neighborhood that have names?
#3: Yes, multiple… They give themselves a name.
Tim: Do gangs give themselves a name?
#3: No. a gang doesn’t give itself a name. Then he seems to clarify saying, they don’t have the same name as the baz (the point I think, as we’ll see soon with other commentary, is that a gang is typically inside of a baz, but differentiates itself with a unique name. But then, I’m not so sure about this latter point)
Tim: Can a single person be a gang?
#3: Laughs, no…
Tim: What does a Baz do, do they do anything to help society?
#3: There are gangs in our area that seize truckloads of food, and they distribute them to the people who need it.
Tim: Does a Baz do that?
#3: No That’s not what a baz does, they sit around and talk about football, things, women…. It’s not people who enter into things that are out of the ordinary
Tim: Does a Baz do anything good?
#3: Yes, they can do something good. We organize football games, we organize to help children in school. A gang can’t do that.
Someone cuts in, saying literally, “a gang can’t do that.”
#3: A gang can’t do that.
#4: A gang more pillages the population…
Tim: Asks if they pillage the very neighborhood were they are living.
#4: Yes, they sometimes come in houses and take people belongings… Even foreigners (he uses the word for entranje, which could be people from outside or overseas, but based on use of the word again later in the focus group I’m judging they simply mean people from outside the neighborhood) can’t really come into the neighborhood. A baz does things sportif, cultural. But a member of a baz can enter into a gang. Depends on his mentality.
#6: (he’s from Site Soley, Bwa Neuf). There is a difference between baz and gang. And now we have “staff”. People in a staff are youth who organize to sit around and shoot the bull. A baz can form part of a gang. Then he starts describing how “the gangs have started to give their baz the name foundation.” Site Soley gangs are now callings themselves “foundations.” He goes through each of the neighborhoods that have gangs…. Boston is Foundation something…. He lists all the major gangs/foundations (I think there are 8, this information is available) … What I want to say is a “Staff” always organizes to do something (inaudible) in the neighborhood… In the gang there is always something they do, they always say they are there to give security to the neighborhood. We, we know that if someone has something in their hand that is illegal, they’re not going to give the neighborhood security because they not military, they’re not police, they didn’t go to the academy. But when you’re in the area you can sleep because they’re in the street, people from other areas won’t invade. But we don’t put the gang and baz with staff. Gang and baz are the same. “Bagay bandi” (thuggery). ”Staff” is different. Take a place like Site Soley, most of the youth don’t have anything to do… that’s why they join the baz…Talks about Staff and how it’s good…. They do projects. His own staff is called, “Staff Che Guevara.”
(this guy is in a Staff and he’s very focused on finding out what we’re giving away. I don’t include all he says, but in a moment he begins asking what we’re going to do for Site Soley and we have to cut him off, digress for a moment and explain that we are only a group of researchers but that we believe that by giving them a voice, by doing things like focus groups and carrying their message and the truth to the aid organizations and government we can help resolve problems and target assistance to the real people and problems where it is needed.)
#2: Talks about Klan and Baz. Talks about the word gang is inside baz. A baz is a place where people get together, talk and drink. He goes to the baz in his neighborhood. If your in a gang, your in a baz. The gang is embedded in the baz. But not everyone in the baz is in the gang. Two things that cause people to be in a gang. Lack of education and unemployment. In his neighborhood there are young men in his neighborhood, they don’t have the resources to continue to study. They have to quit school and now they don’t have anything else to do. There is no work. Imagine, guy is 24 , 25-years old. He’s going to ask himself, what he has for tomorrow. There is no more choice.
Tim: are there women in these gangs?
#2: Yes, but 90 percent are male…. Goes on to repeat that there is no other choice… He also says that you can find men in the gang who have university level education. And he extends the problem of unemployment to even those who finish school. He says they push you in Haiti to finish all your studies, but when you’re done, there is still no opportunity.
#5: He talks about Staff which do good for the neighborhood. They compete to beautify the neighborhood. But he says those at the baz are drinking… That the environment of the baz opens the way to gang. Then he talks about gang now competing with staff, trying to do things for the neighborhood, that’s why they call themselves foundation. They take food and give it away…. He goes on to say they are not doing the bad things they did before. They are trying to do good. Leaders passing the order that they don’t stop, search and steal from cars neighborhood. They are entering into ‘society.’ [I have this tentative hypothesis that staff might also be a new euphemism for gang. Later another guy starts using the word staff in terms of the gang ‘management’ or core members, and he calls them “staff”, which suggests it’s a word borrowed from English and quite literally means the people you have on the payroll].
#1: He is from Martissant. Inside of baz there is “function” and “klan.” A “Function” is to plan, spy, help those with guns to rob. These are mostly women. Then there is “klan”, which is also inside the baz. It is literally, clan, subdivisions of the gang. He then goes on to give an example of how different clans will be granted control over different parts of a market. He says it’s not simply anti-establishment. To give security and protect businessmen, honest people. He describes it as a sophisticated security racket but one that, while it might be informal, is arguably good. They protect big businesses, hotels, markets. They don’t need the police [and it’s well understood in Haiti that a) the police are unlikely to be able to help you when you’re faced with a gang in a slum neighborhood and b) if the police were more powerful, they would be collecting protection money and the state would be collecting taxes. In fact, the market and the cockfights were historically a mainstay of state functionaries].
Tim: I ask if they offer security like this, are they still called baz and gang. He says yes. I ask if this means they can be considered to do good. He says yes. But he also says that in the same way, if you open a business next to another business that is protected, they might destroy your business in the interest of the business that is already their client.
Gary asks for some clarifications about competition between clans.
#1: He says that when money is poorly divided among the members, i.e. the leader does not share enough, it incites conflict. And then, baz and gang are not the same thing, which is what he said before. But now he says they are not the same thing because a couple guys can have their baz, meaning just a place they get together.
[Someone talks about this elsewhere in another focus group and we are going to see a lot of support coming for this: most men have something akin to a baz, a place they hang, watch sports, play dominoes. It is same as in the US where many local youth have a corner, a parking lot, or store where they hang after school; men hang at a local pub or restaurant. In the same way, a baz is a ‘hang.’ In Haiti it’s usually around a boutik, or someone’s house that will then become a kind of boutik. They’ll be selling snacks, kleren and cigarettes…. Also it’s important to keep in mind that popular class males will often use the word baz as people in popular US neighborhoods use homi, my niga, or bro. So youth will often call each other “baz”, “hey baz” , “yo baz, what’s up”, “see you later baz…”. But when a baz becomes formal, meaning it’s no longer just a hang, it is now home to a gang and it now has political significance and is making a claim to territory, rights, recognition, and political patronage. All of which is coming soon.]
Richard: the way you use the term baz depends on where you are… #2 says that’s why I was saying that if you have a baz you don’t necessarily have a gang. But if you have a gang, there’s a baz. The gang is always embedded in a baz.
#7: I’m from Belaire. What is a baz? It’s a lot of young people who manage an area. And then he starts talking about money. When a politician (“power”) gives money to an area it get’s distributed to the baz. “This guy is in this baz (name), he gets money. This guy is not in a baz, no money. This guy is in such and such baz,, he gets some of the money.” “If there is no baz, no money.” “In this way, someone sees this and wants some of the money, he says I’m going to start my own baz. The guy who receives money in a neighborhood, he’s got a gun. And it channels youth into it.” And then he repeats, “If you are not in baz, you don’t get any of the money.” He knows kids 15 years of age who say they are in such and such baz. Sometimes when the money comes the meanest just takes it. Then he starts talking about the multiple “bosss” , 1st boss, 2nd boss, 3rd boss… They each have their own “clan” and similar to the guy who spoke about clans before, this can lead to cleavage and fighting. Each leader creates his own baz. They can start fighting. [here is the use of the word “staff” again. He uses it several times regarding pay. Each guy has his staff that he has to share the money with. As I touched on earlier, what’s really interesting is that the other guy, #6, talked about this new institution, “staff” but staff is an English word and apparently it’s bled over from NGOs, it’s the staff, the full baz members, the people on the payroll, but #6 was telling us that they are actually calling the new groups, staff. Again, I’m skeptical that Staff is not simply a competitor euphemism for Foundation). He gives some illustrations. It’s little mixed up. But the jist is that if 3rd boss doesn’t have a gun and he’s getting intimidated by the 2nd boss, or even if it’s just some civilian, he as a problem with the baz, he’ll go to the 1st boss (not sure if he’s really talking about the top baz guy or simply someone well off or powerful in the neighborhood) and complain. The solution, the 1st boss will give him a gun. He might then start his own baz. “And that’s what destroys the zone. The government makes it worse. They send the money…” He talks about fighting between clans. Then he concludes, oddly, “because the area lacks school.”
Tim: Asks about women in the baz?
#7: “Yes, but they don’t carry a gun. They sell themselves, sell their bodies. The men have money, she goes caresses with guy/s in the baz … “ “Women play another role. She messes with you because she can, because she’s in the baz. She messes with you and you hit her, she goes and gets the boys.” And then he shifts, speaking more generally, meaning not simply if she has a problem with you, but just because she knows: “If she sees you have some money, you just got a transfer, she tells her man in the baz.” “Another thing, now we don’t have a lot of activity in the market—because the economy isn’t good (protests impede people going to the markets) but before they were big.” He names markets. ‘The head guy, to give his 2nd some respect, will send him to “fe reset” in the markets,’ which means go pick up protection money. ‘The guy will keep some of the money, buy himself a gun and when the 1st boss challenges him later, now he’s got his thing, he’ll stand up to him…. Say you can’t be asking me for money, he makes a stand.’ ‘That’s what makes the baz fight. He looks for everyone to work for him, builds his baz…’ “The 1st one has to get on reef. He doesn’t know how many people are in the baz that’s formed underneath him (against him but inside his baz).” “The first goes to shot at the second, he didn’t know he had a gun. When you hear the guns start singing at night, that what it is, them fighting among themselves.” He immediately returns to talking about women without taking a breath. The women you know what they do. And he goes on to describe how the women work as informers. “A guy tries to get as many women as he can in as many places as possible 24 fanm nan 24 katye” (24 women in 24 neighborhoods)” so they can find out who has money, who has a gun… Now he jumps the topic again, without taking a breath. ‘Then there are those who are in another class. They have some education and say they are revolutionaries. When you ask them how they got to be in a gang they say they are revolutionaries. They are there to fight for the zone. They come to have power. They have some education. They don’t want to say they’re part of a gang. Now the system swallows him. When they are fighting and blocking the area, the project (whatever is being blocked) comes to negotiate, they look for them (the revolutionary). They ask them if he knows such-n-such a baz. He says yeah, they’re “vole”—(thieves). The people representing the NGO or government project ask if he can sit down with them. He says yeah. Now they say, ‘I’ll give you this much money.’ And the guy goes and separates it with the baz. [it’s as if he’s telling the history of how the system evolved, but he’s doing it in an odd processual sort of way, almost as if he’s talking about an individual, but it’s more aloof than that, yet what he’s really saying is this is how it came to be]. ‘Now he separates the money. They give him 100,000 dollar to share with the base.’ He mentions that the revolutionary uses the radio, he’s a spokesman, an activist, that’s his gun. ‘Now someone calls the baz and tells them how much money he got. He kept some for himself too… Next thing you know they’re coming after him saying, ‘revolutionary didn’t give them all the money.’ ‘And now he’s got to go buy a gun too’
Tim: asks if they a baz does anything good. Jackly clarifies using the word gang in place of baz.
#7: Gang doesn’t do anything good, because they’re channeling children into crime. They things they do in interest of the people in the neighborhood is just so that they can keep the favor of the population, so that when the police come they can meld in. He remembers 2004, during operation Bagdhad. Something happened, like a big fight, the police came and the gangs called the population out into the street. “The population has become like a sheet for them (to hind behind). They become invisible in the midst of the population.” They involve the population, they enter in full. “When they do something social, they give you something. They give them guns too. They give you a market to manage. When others come and ask you for money from the market, they give you a gun to fend them off. You enter into their system. They also devour you too. When you’re too hot for them, they make the gang take you out.”
Tim: So they do politics too? Someone says yes and Tim follows asking, Do you always see them doing politics?
#1: “Yes, they’re into politics too, because for a political leader to enter an area they have to get permission from them first… before they can sit down with the population. if the gang doesn’t want you to come into an area, you can’t. This is true for president or senator. Sometimes it’s them who are responsible for campaign of a deputy, senator or president in their area.”
Tim: So politicians look for them?
#6: Yes, the politicians look for them
#7: That’s who makes them rich (uses the word “opulent”)
Tim: So this is coming from the top… Motivation for the political involvement is from the top.
#7: Yes, they sometimes sit down with a politician who is already in power. They tell him they don’t need his money, they need guns. They ask for two Galil (Israeli made automatic rifle).
#4: He says, “if we could put this in an organogram, it would have a lot of branches, because us on the bottom, I’m talking directly about gangs. It has an aspect not only political, but it’s not really social (service). If you’re doing something social, you can’t very well rob, abuse the population, and spill blood run….” “But for them to this they got support from the top.” Goes on to say, “where is one of these guys going to get the money for the bullets…. They have providers.” And then segues right back to, “baz isn’t really the same as a gang. Even the police say to one another, ‘hey baz…’ they share the lingo/concept of baz (he actually calls it “the ‘same ideology”). ’ Gang is there most to terrorize the population. They bully them. They make it so other citizens can’t even come into your neighborhood.
Gary asks a clarification. Can’t understand it for the sound.
#3: Explains how they make every neighborhood business pay protection. “That’s the money they buy bullets with. They contribute to buying the bullets. In that sense. You can say the people in the zone buy the same bullets that will give them [the merchants] a problem [meaning the merchants are subsidizing their problem].”
#7: “They don’t say ‘give a bullet if you want,’ they force you to give them the bullet. They send you an envelope and tell you exactly how much you’re going to pay.” Talks about them smashing a case of a merchants colas on the ground, “you’re going to give $80.”
Jackly asks if they do more good than bad?
#4: “More bad. They don’t really protect the population. (The suggestion being that that is something they very much insist they do). They protect themselves against other gangs.” He talks about bad separation of money giving way to fighting among themselves….
#6: The biggest evil that’s happened in the popular neighborhoods is that you have a daughter, you finish preparing her for life and you find that some gang guy has impregnated her.
Gary asks if it’s rape or consensual.
#6: The girl might not want to consent, but because of the gun in his hand, she does. [I’m very sure from the way they’re saying this and what comes next that they do not mean that the gang member has the gun in his hand held to her head, but that she’s intimidated because she knows he could, or perhaps I should say, he has power of intimidation of the gang. In this way she chooses the path of least resistance and less problems for her family].
Lot of talking over one another, suggesting there are some strong feelings about this.
#3: Something more, the girl can be coming of age, she sees the guy has a gun, he calls to her, she has to come over to his house. That’s a rape (meaning, whether he physically forced her or not, she does have much choice).
#7: “There are those who go [to the baz] to find respect.” [#3 laughs] “Because around their own house they don’t get respect. They’re going to make their friends see that they’re in good with the big boss. He goes to the baz because he doesn’t have a gun yet. Girls too. Then if someone messes with them, they threaten them with their gangster friends….” ‘Some guy messes with the girl, she goes and gives the big boss a night. And the boss will have the guy worked over.’ “She says to her friend, I’m going to blow your mind, I’m going to make this big boss kiss me…. And calls the big boss over and says kiss me….. and he does.” “When the gang does something social—like give away food—it’s with the same objective, to make them disciples. When they have a war against La Saline or Bel Aire… they call in the favors, they have to come fight.” “People who have education they take them to write projects, manage them, solicit money… They protect that person, keep them behind a curtain (so they don’t get hurt). The boss doesn’t let the other members disrespect them. These are the people who help him find money from the government. They’ll take a professor from school to convince people in the government, to negotiate with the people in the State, because they know that they can’t convince people in the government.” “They will so protect those people, but bad things happens to those people. For example, they get caught in the middle of fights between the 1st and 2nd, and 3rd bosses…. ‘They take a beating, get extorted by the different boss who wants them to bring the money to them. They get blamed for skimming, Slapped, shot…. The guy feels is scared, but because he can’t find money any other way, he’s surviving, he stays with it.’ ‘They sometimes get them position as director of a school, through political demands, meaning they threaten to close a school if the guy is not appointed director (this has to be understood in the context that school professorships and even more, directorships are bigtime government patronage. In interviews with ministers, the Ministry of Education is considered one of the two most important posts for doling out patronage and it happens through the public school system (~20 percent of schools are public). Jobs as teachers and directors are lifetime government appointments. Approval comes through the ministry but the deputies (congressmen) lobby the minister of education for positions. The minister of education has to conform or they will not be minister long as they have their position only with support of deputies and senators (in fact, these typically last about 1 year because they can’t sustain the demands of the deputies. And so when they stop giving they’re gone. Next minister comes in and the process repeats itself. Also, very important, director of school means power over resources, not least of all food distribution in the form of school lunches, or at least it used to, and that’s huge money, i.e. stealing the food and selling it on the local market).
Tim: Asks about puntos (drug sales points) that are big in DR, and a/the major source of income for gangs. That’s what they fight over… Cocaine sales…
Richard says often the fighting is over the markets.
Tim: So what’s the biggest source of money for the gangs?
#7: In general, it’s the State
#3: “Around our neighborhood, I observe that there are a few places that sell marijuana. But it’s not cocaine. When we have problems between zones it’s a problem of politics …. Because my candidate can’t come into your area, yours can’t come into ours.” Then he talks about 34 neighborhoods but 5 zones in his area (of Site Soley). “Those 5 zones have 5 big bosses. Wo Mache, Ba Mache… Drouillard, those big bosses are the ones who can allow a candidate to enter.” Then he says in Rue Neuf and Bosal fight over markets. That’s because they have big markets. But the rest fight over politics….
Tim: What are the most important political positions they fight over?
#3: All are important.
Tim: Even Kazek?
#3: ‘Even Kazek, because they have a political party behind them.’ Mentions that they have political parties behind them [something that is not explored]. ‘If you’re with one (meaning you support him), you put up fliers for him, but if another comes and wants you to help, he’s gotta pay. But that doesn’t mean I’m with you. They wind up making deals, trading Mayor for Deputy…They make a deal and don’t give. That’s what causes the conflicts…’
#7: “Here’s what pot and cocaine bring to our area, it doesn’t bring fighting…” “It brings ‘bad eye’ (move je), bad people we don’t know from other areas (he uses the word Etranje). “Some wind up staying in the area.” Calls them grenn sal = dirty seed. “They become soldiers too (in the gangs).” And he turns back to politics, “that’s what they are fighting over. If you want to be president, you have to pay the baz…” “They say the civil population can participate in politics, but it’s not true. Politics don’t work like that here…” You have to use a baz to get elected. Gives an example of how Ceant, who was a presidential candidate several times in the past and just recently was the prime minister, sent someone into the neighborhood in and offered money to his baz. But his baz has no guns. They’re what these guys keep calling, “societal”, one without guns, that works passively for the good of the neighborhood. But they refused, ostensibly because they are not a gang. They tried to help Ceant. They put up fliers. Every time they put up a flier, kids would tear them down. The local baz with a gang was sending the kids. And the gang guys wouldn’t let them punish the kids. So they could not stop them. Ceant tried to come thinking that he was invited to the ‘societal baz’ but the gang started shooting, which went on from 4 am to 10 pm, all day, because he hadn’t consulted with the gang.
When Ceant asked why he couldn’t come. ‘Societal’ said because the gang wanted money.’ Ceant said yes, he would pay. “Societal said, better you give that money to small vendors than a gang.” “Ceant said he would rather pay the gang, that there was money available for that.” “This is what destroys the popular neighborhoods”. “Kids who have lax parents don’t go to school anymore… They go eat in the baz, soon they’re smoking, drinking, become part of the baz…. They get support…They enter into the system.” “The Haitian State destroyed the popular neighborhoods.”
Tim: Are women ever in charge.
Someone says, “they almost never have that.”
#7: Says not really but that they call the gang members, “general” and that they will call their madam (wife, girlfriend…), “Madam General.” “She has access. She can get things from anyone…” “They use them to go on errands, get money…” “And they get respect,” as discussed earlier on. And, “the women have disciples too,” because they have money, “and they have them form relations with their husbands friends in the gang.”
#3: Starts talking about a woman who shoots a lot. Laughs… “Says she’s in Brooklyn.” This woman is probably the same described in much greater detail in focus group for women. One corroborating point mentioned in this description (corroborating in the sense that it is probably the same woman) is that she’s giving a whole block a problem. He calls her dangerous several times. (She was kicked out of her neighborhood, moved to another area and went for revenge. Seems she’s terrorizing people from that neighborhood. They can’t approach where she sells at a market, she sabotaged them on a secret trail they made to market…. All in other focus group.] He says she’s a “boss mason”—meaning she’s bald. She has a big gun… She’s in Wo Brooklyn (Site Soley neighborhood).
Stephanie asks what a woman can do that a man can’t do in a baz.
#3: “A woman can do everything and more than a man. There are women that are more active than a man.”
#5: “A lot of women act as an antenna…. Telling other baz what guns come in, what politician gave how much money or what type of gun so that when that politician comes to them they can ask the same thing.”
#6: “A woman in this system plays a lot of roles.” “They know everything that goes on.” ‘A woman can be with 5 guys in different baz.’ “Sometimes they make a deal, and they put the woman in front.”
Stephanie asks how they get into a baz.
#5: He describes a woman in his neighborhood (in Site Soley) who was madam of a leader of a gang. The gang leader died. They put her out of the neighborhood. She went to another baz… You couldn’t go into that area (if you were from the other baz), because she knew your face. Talks about the woman having a m-14 and shooting at you. (again, sounds like the same woman described above).
Stephanie: how do they get in, is it by they boyfriend/husband….?
#5: “She could need respect…” seems he’s talking about the same women still, “and she’s a drug dealer (another suggestion that it’s same woman discussed in women’s focus group because in that focus group she was not for selling pot).
#4: “There are those who enter by their friends… Some because they are scared… Some need respect…” “Once your in a baz, it’s not easy to leave, you feel like you loose respect, popularity…” “He tells of a baz in Martissant (Backup san plak), they have some 13 or 14 women. They carry arms.”
Stephanie asks to clarify the words and he says, “yes, they’re carrying the gun. They get out with guns in their hands. They shoot…” He adds that he doesn’t know if they’ve killed anyone, but they shoot places up.
#4: They get information… They carry guns to other areas.
#7: Says that where he lives, they do not often carry guns (meaning handle and shot them). “They act as spies…They dress pretty and go hangout with other thugs and listen to all they have to say. They die too if they get caught…” “They carry arms…” ‘Hide guns on their body when the police are searching people, because they don’t really search women.’ ‘The gangs use children too.; Gives an example in La Saline, of a couple children who were working since 8 years of age with the gang.
#2: “Regarding women entering in the gang and how they do it. Usually it’s children in bad conditions, parents are not responsible…. It is very hard to find a woman who went to school, who has education….and who goes into a gang. It’s extremely rare. It’s unemployment, lack of hope. You can find any level of man in a gang, but not so with women.”
Richard interjects with comment about parallels with US mafia.
#1: Regarding women in the gang. He talks about going in once and seeing nurses taking care of some wounded gang members…. He says how the police would arrest these women if they arrived. He suggests some are forced to help. Some are madam of a member and they have not choice. Then he slips into saying how some are intimidating into helping/assisting becoming spouse of members for fear that their parents will lose their lives. [when we did a survey in the Women’s prison, then in PV, many fo the women were in for ‘association with criminals/gang members’, typically their spouse or boyfriend]
#7: “They make people believe that they are fighting for the neighborhood, protecting them from a massacre.” ‘But they’re so aware that people in the area don’t like them, they take young kids (teenagers) 12, 14 years old, girls, and have them listen to people. Meanwhile, they’re holding people up, stealing from them, robbing them. While they’re do this, if the girls hear someone talking bad about what the gang is doing (denouncing them for robbing people in broad daylight), later they will send for the person and beat them with clubs.’ Then he turns into a specific story about a woman who was overheard criticizing the gang while they were robbing people. 4 young boys had been listening…. They denounced her. She got a beating and died 14 days later. “They have these clubs, long ones, they can stand way back, sometimes give a person 200 blows like that.”
Stephanie asks how do people see women who are in the baz?
#7: “They’re afraid of them…. You could be talking to someone, they mention someone in the gang and boo, they run away (meaning literally, they turn and run).”
#7: “Around my house, the way you get respect from a gang, people know you’re not in anything bad. At my baz we give children books and pencils…. They give good baz credit… They don’t smoke pot in my baz.” “But if they hear you have money, they’ll come steal it. For example if a politician gives money to a good baz, the gang will send for the money. If they don’t give it, they try to put the baz out of the area.” Suddenly its is apparent that he’s talking from experience here, a specific experience. “But they did not put us out because they respected us.” ‘They’ll check to see if they sent other baz gang money. If they did not, they’ll leave them alone. If you have someone in your group who handles a gun, they’ll put you to fly.’
#3: Around his neighborhood, “there are is no original. If you have a conflict with our block, there’s no resisting… Even voudouassaint, even them, they’ll cut their throats…” “You could have been there all the time, part of the neighborhood, doesn’t matter.”
#7: In his neighborhood it’s not like that. He talks about seeing a guy stop a gang member from beating a guy, because he’s from a good family…. And the thug said, if there’s a problem with him, I’ll be contacting you. But let it go.
#2: Concludes: “Can a country function with bandits, gangs… where a president runs for candidate by giving guns to gangs. Are those gangs not going to destroy you (as president he means, and that’s pretty much what is happening every day right now, their tearing the president down. In the past year we’ve had the countries major politicians, head of senate, and deputies, in the news protesting alongside gang leaders, and it’s not really new). And as a president, what plan do you have to deal with them. And this is a country where we don’t have access to work, healthcare, education… And if a president with a plan to do all that did appear, I don’t think that the gangs are going to let that happen.” He finishes saying that in his neighborhood the youth are doing nothing, playing dominoes, drinking….. All of them are destined for gangs. There is no hope.
