Lafem Goat Owners
Date of focus group: 31/01/2018
Participants:
#9, Male, 37 years old, 0, Farmer, 5th
#11, Male, 34 years old, 0, Farmer, 6th
#13, Male, 37 years old, 4, Farmer, 9th
#1, Male, 45 years old, 4, Farmer, 6th
#4, Male, 62 years old, 8, Farmer, 6th
#7, Male, 62 years old, 0, Farmer, 0
#12, Female, 56 years old, 4, Farmer, 4th
#3, Male, 65 years old, 6, Farmer, 9th
#6, Female, 27 years old, 0, Farmer, 6th
#8, Female, 39 years old, 1, Farmer, 6th
Jackly: Good afternoon, everyone.
Public: Good afternoon.
Jackly: OK, my name is Beautelus Jackly. I’m here with my colleague Islande. We are working with HEKS-EPER…
Public: Thank you.
Islande: Good afternoon, everyone.
Public: Good afternoon.
Islande: We are going to have a little talk. First, I would like to give you the ground rules. When you speak, don’t give your name, just raise the number you have been given in the air. For example, your number is 14? Say 14 or number 14, then give your response, understand?
Public: Yes.
Islande: Let me take a few people. Number 4, since when have you been raising goats, keeping goats?
#4: Me, I’ve had goats since the age of 12 or 13. Been raising goats since then.
Islande: For 12 or 13 years. And if I asked you, ma’am, since what age, how old were you when you started keeping goats ?
#12: 12 years.
Islande: 12 years?
#12: Yes.
Islande: OK, back then did they let you rotate the goats (move the animals and tether them at a new location where they can browse) on your own, or did someone else move them for you?
#12: My father showed me how to rotate the goats.
Islande: OK, OK, let’s move on. What kind of goats were there in the area? Were there foreign goats, were there other breeds of goats that you know of in the area?
#3: There are improved long-ear goats and there are creole goats.
Islande: There are improved long-ear goats?
#3: Yes.
Islande: Improved long-ear….
#3: But they’re not easy to find. Just a few projects have brought them in.
Islande: But do you have them around here?
#3: No.
Islande: I didn’t say which there are…
#3: We don’t have it.
Islande: In the area.
#3: They don’t sell well there. They sold them as soon as they were ready.
Islande: You don’t have them any more ? So, you have just one kind, the domestic breed, right?
Public: Yes.
Islande: Yes, OK, and have you ever heard of a wild breed around here?
Participant: There’s no wild goats left.
Islande: Goats that have lived in the woods, ended up in the woods because they had no owner.
Public: No, there aren’t any.
Islande: How do you raise the animals? Do you keep the goats tied on a cord, or do release them?
Public: We keep them on a cord.
Islande: Everyone please remember to say your number when you speak. Number 12, you may speak.
#12: I keep them on a cord.
Islande: OK, number… what’s your number again?
#9: Number 9.
Islande: Number 9.
#9: I keep goats on a cord.
Islande: You keep your goats on a cord, but are there people who release them in the high areas or in large pastures?
#3: Number 3. I keep goats in a place with a pasture that’s not too small.
Islande: Some I tie, others I release. The ones released follow the biggest ones so they don’t’ go far, because there are lots of dangers when you release goats on their own. I leave them in a pasture with their mother so they don’t go far.
Islande: Is that pasture yours, Number 3, or is it the government’s, or… ?
#3: My own pasture when I’m not working on state land.
Islande: OK, is there state land in the area where people go tie their goats, or release them ? It’s not close, it’s all the way over in Gran Bwa, the big forest, the state land.
#13: Only the people close to it….
Islande: Tell me your number, 13.
#13: Number 13, everybody who is near it, people who live in the woods (Gran Bwa), they use it, release their goats in it.
Islande: The woods, what locality is that in ?
#3: You’re talking about Lopino, Balbari, Marouj.
Islande: OK Bwa Tanpe, Ennchi, Tozya, places without a lot of houses, that’s where, people below here work, there are managers there and they go release their goats in those woods? Tozya, Tozya is not in the Chalèt area?
Public: Lè Zanglè.
Islande: Lè Zanglè is higher, you leave Chalèt and go up?
Public: Chalèt is there.
#3: Chalèt is here.
Islande: And the way you go you pass Nan Ranp ?
Islande: Ah, OK.
#3: You go all the way.
Islande: OK, you all here don’t have goats up there, all the way up ? You don’t go and keep your goats far away like that ?
#3: We keep our goats close so we can keep an eye on them from time to time.
Jackly: Just now you were saying that releasing goats was dangerous.
#3: When you release goats in the woods you might think they’re there when they’re not. They might go into another pasture and get lost.
Jackly: OK.
#3: People might take them, too. Or a goat you let go free it’s not good. Sometimes a mother might make babies with its father, the offspring breeds with the father, you understand? It’s not good for us. Brother and sister. We keep our goats contained with cords so we can control them.
Jackly: Ah, OK. Around here you don’t want a goat to impregnate its sister?
#3: No, no.
Jackly: .., but they say there are two breeds of goat you have [this is a joke, a play on the Kreyol expression that some people breed like goats, meaning they have mate with people who are family] …[laughter]
#3: With relatives, with relatives.
Jackly: Around here you don’t want that?
#3: No, we don’t want it to be that way.
Jackly: It’s like that for everybody?
Islande: Is it for you or for everybody?
Jackly: Number 13.
#13: For everybody.
#3: But we do training for everybody.
#13: In not releasing them so they don’t get into people’s gardens.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: Yes, we tell them not to beat them for getting into gardens.
#13: Yes, yes, to keep them from getting into people’s crops we keep them on a cord.
Islande: OK.
#4: Sometimes when a goat is eating in the woods it can get its head caught in the brush.
Islande: Who else is going to say something. (Silence) Nobody else is going to say anything? I can start?
#1: Well, number 1, number 1. It’s always the same thing, meaning sometimes it’s like they have said, it will go into somebody’s pasture, and the person can take it and leave it with the state, and then you have to spend money to get it back.
Islande: OK, number 7 you were saying something?
#7: No, that gentleman covered what I was going to say.
Islande: Hmm, OK. (silence) And what do you do to recognize which goat is yours?
#8: Number 8, you distinguish according to the goat’s markings.
Islande: The goat’s markings?
#8: Yes, we tie them in our own pastures, we don’t go tie them in somebody else’s land. We manage the goat.
Islande: When you’re moving your goats, do you ever run into a neighbor who’s moving their goats, and you’re walking together and the goats get their feet tangled up?
#8: Number 8, when our goat passes behind theirs, we yell to them and grab ours.
Islande: OK.
#13: It’s number 13.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#13: I follow behind, and I look for a separate area to put mine.
Islande: Hum hum
#13: And then I have someone who comes with me.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#13: I lead my team, he leads his. For example, the other guy might go ahead of me, and then when mine get to the crossroads, his will go their way and mine will go theirs. Everybody takes their own way home.
Islande: OK but if you just bought a goat do you think it would go the right way?
#13: No, not yet. It won’t yet know the way, it will follow the leader, the ones that were already there.
Islande: Ah, ah.
#13: Yes.
Islande: OK, but do you ever lose a goat?
#13: Not often. It happens, but not often. One might break its cord, or get stolen.
Islande: Do you do anything to prevent that ? To be able to recognize your goats if they get stolen?
#4: Number 4. Some goats, they might have a cord around its head, and you know what cord you put on it. And then some goats look alike, so you have to know the markings, even if it looks like another you have to be able to tell them apart. There are goats with a star on them, if they’re black they have a white mark, and the white ones might have a black star. That means you have something to determine which one is yours.
Islande: OK, but you don’t brand them, put a brand on them?
#8: Number 8, they brand cattle, but not goats or pigs, sheep, we don’t brand those animals yet.
Islande: Hmm, somebody told me just now that to brand a goat they cut a little piece of its ear, do you do that?
#3: Number 3, a lot of goats have a cut ear, but they don’t have a brand they could use in court. A person might catch a thief with the goat, and the thief can say he cut the goat’s ear. He can say he’s the one who cut the goat’s ear, because it was sick.
Islande: But you can make a round cut, another can make a square cut, and another a rectangle. But you say it’s not something that’s exact.
#4: It’s not a type of identification that’s exact.
Islande: In that case…
#3: The goat, goats know their owners well. Me, I had a goat in a field and a thief took it, the thief took it away and confined it, put it in a building with a child watching over it. He gave the child money, and said he went and bought it for him. The goat broke its cord and escaped. I was investigating what happened and somebody in the market told me all that. I went to check it out, I went after the goat. When I got there, I called out for the owner of the house, and the goat answered me. As soon as the goat heard my voice, it started chewing its cord so it could come join me. There was a woman in the kitchen, she said, “Look how that goat responds to a person! That must be its master.” She ran and asked me what was the matter. I said I lost a goat, they said there was a thief they caught here and I came to see if it’s the one. She led the way, and as soon as I arrived the goat jumped on me. The animal knew its master. Once it’s accustomed to its owner, to following him, it looks for him, if it arrives in a place it can pick out its owner.
Jackly: OK, is there anybody else who would like to say something?
Public: I already said something.
Jackly: Has everybody said something? […..] OK. Around here do you brand goats or mark them? Did they already ask that question?
Public: It’s as we were saying, we don’t have a way to brand goats exactly because that would require a number.
Jackly: OK, is there a place where they cut the goat’s ear?
#3: Cutting the ears is not a hard and fast means of identification, again, because a thief can just say he’s the one who cut the goat’s ear. You can’t lay claim to a goat based on a cut in its ear.
Jackly: OK, so for example if you go to a market to buy a goat, what do you look for that will let you say you’ve found a goat that’s good as livestock, meaning it’s a goat you can raise… what qualities should it have? Or what do you look for in a goat as an animal you can buy and keep as livestock?
#3: Number 3, you should choose a good goat based on looking at its four hooves.
Jackly: OK, its four hooves.
#3: You can look at the goat’s form, its eyes, horns, teeth, there are plenty of things to look at when you’re choosing a goat to raise.
Jackly: OK, so you can say it’s a good breed, or a goat you can raise, or… ?
#3: You can say it’s a goat you can raise but it’s only when it starts breeding that you’ll know whether it’s good, a truly good breed.
Jackly: Ah, OK, because…
Islande: Is there any other remark, like when you look at the udders?
#3: You check them out to see whether they are good. But when you talk about breastfeeding, I put it to the test with two goats. And even if it has two small udders and two large ones, it might have three babies and raise all three.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: It bears twins and it raises both, with no problem. It’s pigs that are more likely to have issues.
Islande: OK, does anybody have anything more to say?
#1: Well, number 1, as our friend just said, we have goats that have 3, 4 udders.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: And imagine, you are convinced the goat can be a good breed, and then you are going to keep it. In the future the way it is, it’s behavior, its physical attributes, that is when you can really tell, you see that it really is a good breed of goat.
Islande: And if you are going to buy a goat in the market, what kind of goat do you buy to raise?
#1: Well, if you are looking to buy a goat in the market, they can have several traits, but usually you’ll be looking to buy a female, and like with a cow it might already have birthed, and maybe for example you can find some friends who can help you confirm it’s a good goat and you buy it, and then you raise it, and that is when you can really confirm that you can breed it, you can keep it and it can give you a good breed of goats.
Islande: Let me ask the question again another way. What observation can you make about a goat to say whether it will be good for breeding if you are buying one in the market?
#8: Number 8, if the goat is healthy, you can tell if it is healthy, and there are ways to look at it to make sure it’s not too old. Then you can go ahead and buy the goat.
Islande: OK, does anyone else have anything to say?
#13: Well, number 13, although our friend has already given a lot of information about his ways because, he’s behind you…
Islande: Mmm hmm…
#13: And the other who was here also provided much information about how you can choose a good goat.
Islande: OK, now, if I’m buying a goat to resell, what kind of goat should I buy to resell ?
#1: Well, the goat you’ll buy to resell first of all you have to identify the goat. If you are going into the middle of the market with it, is it sick ? And if it’s sick it might not be able to walk that far, maybe you’ll buy it in the market and then get it when you go. The goat in the market has to be in good shape, and not sick. And then, you’re looking for a goat you can make a profit on. If you buy it for 1000 gourdes you figure you can make 200 gourdes on it, or 250 gourdes, or even 300. That means you need to find a goat you can get something out of, that’s the one you buy.
Islande: In that case, if you’re buying a goat in the market to breed, do you get a little one, or a big one, or a young one?
Public: No, we take a young one, it depends on how much money you have with you.
#3: Number 3, it depends on how much money you have on you. You might find a goat you like in the market but you can’t take it to sell because it’s not going to be profitable for you to sell a goat like that, so you have to buy a small one, you choose a small one that looks like it will grow into a good goat.
Islande: OK, but the advantage, what’s the advantage? I don’t know what the benefit is. Buy a tiny one, I mean buy one that’s still following its mother. Do you buy a small one that has not kidded yet, or one that’s already had babies? Which is more advantageous for someong looking to buy a goat?
#3: Number 3, you get an advantage maybe in a goat that has already had babies, sometimes you can buy one that is healthy. Sometimes you can buy one that has already been bred in the market [it was opportunistically bred while tethered or corralled and waiting to be sold], or you might have it two or three weeks and you breed it quickly. But the offspring, you have to raise it, so the profit comes later, so it all depends on how much money you have already.
Islande: So if you buy a grown one there’s no profit to be made if it’s infertile.
#3: No, you have to choose one that is not infertile, an infertile one you can spot.
Islande: What form does it have, I need to know, number 13 was telling me about that.
#3: So, a goat that is not able to have babies, you will see that it is closed up behind, it has become very small, and the goat has gotten meatier. It looks like a goat that has gotten fat, so you don’t look for a goat like that.
Islande: Number 13
#13: Number 13, even if it is hungry a goat like that will never get skinny.
#3: No, it will stay full because it has fat.
Islande: But let me ask, how will I know it has not simply been fattened up, and that the fat on it is because it is infertile?
#3: Well, if they’re fattening it up to sell it’s not a goat to keep for breeding any more.
#1: Number 1.
#3: It’s…
#1: You can also see in its udders, because they’ll never be the same as those of a goat that’s still capable of kidding. Its udders will become dry, they’ll have no milk at all any more.
Islande: Ok, that interests me, in the case of a goat that is young but naturally can’t have babies, how are you going to see that?
#3: By its age.
Islande: That’s number 3, by its age, number 3. I’m going to have to cut you off number 3 because I see you’re speaking and the other people aren’t (laughter).
#3: According to its age.
Islande: So, number 3, you’ll look at the size it has reached without having babies.
#3: If it hasn’t started, it won’t be having any babies at all.
#4: Number 4, it might have been bred. In about 10 percent of cases it wont’t get pregnant. It found another goat bigger than itself, it bred, but it’s not pregnant. That means that it tightly closed up, it can’t get pregnant, that means its mature but it won’t produce.
Islande: But will you, if you go to the market will you be able to determine, even if the goat is young, that it won’t be able to have babies, it won’t yield a profit, so you shouldn’t buy it?
#1: Yes, you’ll be able to see that because it hasn’t been with another goat.
Islande: Will I be able to see that in the market?
#1: You’ll be able to spot that goat.
Islande: How will you do that?
#1: Sometimes a goat like that will show up in the market and you’ll be able to tell by experience. You’ll say that goat, that goat…
Islande: Mmm hmm, but I’ll need experience.
#1: According to its size, its size will confirm that the goat will not have offspring. You’ll see there’s no advantage in it, you won’t buy it. I’ll say, I’m not buying that goat to raise.
Islande: OK, I would like to go to the market because I want to see a goat to be able to say that goat’s not…
#1: Yes, you can, you will be able to, you’ll see it.
Islande: OK, good, you haven’t told me what experience I’ll need to see it.
Public: No, we mean somebody who knows it, number 13, it’s in the training, it’s in training you’ve had with goats that you’ll be able to spot it.
#12: You need somebody who knows to show you, to tell you that a particular goat won’t be able to have babies.
Islande: So, that’s what I need you to tell me. On my own, I won’t be able to tell, I need you to tell me what to look for. How will I be able to see that this little, young goat will never be able to breed, so I shouldn’t buy it in the market.
#3: Some people talk about their little udders. Goats have two, its little udders grow side by side. I’ve noticed it’s not exact, there are some goats that breed rapidly, they have kids following them, they get scared but continue to produce… they raise all their young but some people say because they’re nursing they’ll fail you. But I’ve seen that’s not really the way it is.
Islande: No, because others say when they have little udders they’ll have babies.
#3: Yes, small udders do not prevent goats from producing offspring, and they don’t keep them from having good offspring.
Islande: How do you make a goat attract a mate? How do you do that?
#3: Make it attract a mate?
Islande: How do you make a goat attract a mate, because they’re tied up, right?
Public: Yes.
Islande: Number 8.
#8 : Number 8, when a goat calls out, because I had a goat that was crying out, it was crying and I asked myself what was the matter with it, and I put a male goat with it and she led it to a place to mate (laughter), and then it raised its tail, too. It raised its tail and cried out, you could tell it was calling a mate.
Islande: Why didn’t you go off with the goat (laughter), because you brought in a male?
#8: No, no, I’m not going!.
Islande: Why? But why? [More laughter]
#8: No, I’m not going, truly, that’s a man’s job, not a woman’s.
Islande: Ah, there’s a place for men in raising livestock, and a place for women?
#8: No, I keep goats, but might not be able to go…
Islande: Ah, OK.
#12: Yes, that means that if my husband is not around and the goats need to be led to another place I can’t do it.
Islande: OK, so who is it in the house who rotates the goats? Let’s answer one by one, starting with number 4.
#4: Number 4, in my house, everybody rotates the goats.
Islande: When you say everybody?
#4: My wife moves the goats, takes them to the pasture.
Islande: Hmm, the children rotate the goats, too. When you say children, little girls or boys.
#4: Both girls and goys, meaning when an animal is in the pasture, if I’m busy or not there, the little girls sometimes goes to get the animal and bring it back.
Islande: OK, number 7.
#7: Yes, in my household everybody rotates the goats, it could be a girl, or a boy, everybody is able to go to the pasture in the afternoon and get the goats, and bring them home to tie again in the yard.
Islande: OK, and you, ma’am?
#12: Sometimes dogs eat goats, so you can’t let a goat sleep overnight in the woods. So if your husband is not there you have to go get the goat and put it in the house.
Islande: And in your case?
#12: Me, if he’s not there I’ll rotate the goat, I’ll go there and move the goat.
Islande: Are there children in the house, too?
#12: I have children.
Islande: But you don’t send little children?
#12: No, sometimes you can’t send the children, so you have to do it.
Islande: OK, and for you, number 3?
#3: Number 3, me, I don’t have anybody in my household who doesn’t go tend to the animals, moving animals, mules, all of hte animals. All of the animals we have, everybody has to be able to rotate them. In our community, there’s no question, if you’re eating, that you won’t work, too. Everybody helps with the animals.
Islande: OK.
#3 : Simlply, maybe if it’s a girl I send two, or I send three because they’re girls. When it’s a boy I might send just one. He can go alone. (laughter)
Islande: OK, when it’s the girls you send several, when it’s a boy you send…
# 3 : I just send one. Just one. You understand? Because a girl can’t walk through just any forest by herself, it’s not safe. As the lady was saying just now, if the place you’re tying the goat is in your own pasture, there’s no problem, but if you’re leading it to somebody else’s house, the man will be leading you into his pasture to breed the goat, and some men are not honest people.
Islande: Ah, OK, and you ma’am, number…
#6: Number 6.
Islande: 6?
#6: My father and I go.
Islande: You and your father? You, or your father, or both of you?
#6: Yes, either me or both of us.
Islande: OK.
#6: When he’s not there.
Islande: You don’t have children yet?
#6: No.
Islande: OK.
#3: A baby [laughter]
#6: When I’m not, when he’s not there I’m the one who rotates them.
#3: You don’t see him sitting next to me? His heart is breaking. (laughter)
#6: When he’s there he’s the one who rotates them.
Islande: OK, and you, your number?
#8: Number 8, I rotate the goats when my husband is not there. When he’s there, he’s the one who does it.
Islande: You mean as long as you don’t do it. (laughter)
#8: No, but I might take it in the yard when my husband is not around to go get the goat or go take it somewhere for breeding.
Islande; OK, but not to go breed the goat. (laughter)
#8: No, I don’t want that.
Islande: (Laughter) And what’s your number? 11?
Public: Number 13, 11 number 11.
#11: Number 11.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#11: Me, an adult, I rotate goats, I move them. I can change them, I have more experience than children. If I send a child to tie the goat someplace… the child doesn’t have the same experience I have. I can choose a good spot, but the child doesn’t have the experience to do that. I’m mature, I can choose and rotate the goat myself, because the child doesn’t have the same experience.
Islande: OK, and you don’t have a wife in the house who can rotate them too?
#11: No.
Islande: OK.
#9: Number 9.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#9: Me, along with my little sister who’s in the house. When I’m not there she rotates the goats for me.
Jackly: OK.
#9: And when I’m there I rotate them, but when I’m not there she’s the one who does it for me. Every afternoon we go get them and return them to the yard.
Islande: OK
Jackly: How old is your little sister?
#9: She’s about 36.
Jackly: Ah, OK.
#1: Number 1. Well, I’m the one who rotates our goats, on my own. And I have four children. Sometimes they don’t want to go, and I go, but they rotate them, too.
Islande: When you say four children, four sons?
#1: No, I have two girls, two boys.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: And they help me rotate the animals usually, They help me rotate them the most often, but sometimes if I’m not there the children might keep my wife from leaving.
#13: Number 13, in my family there are six people, and four of them can do it. Among those four, I’m the one who usually does it. There are places you can’t send a child. Sometimes there’s rain, so you go tie them in the morning, you need to go get them in the afternoon. The sun is like that. There are places you tie them, you don’t want to send a child. They can do it but it’s not like my wife can’t. Because, you know, everybody has times when they can leave. When you are there, you can go and your wife has to stay home to take care of things. When I’m not there I come up with strategies, especially when I sometimes leave for two weeks for seminars, like I always buy some grassy spot nearby where I can put them, and rotate them nearby, near our yard. When I’m here I go wherever I want with them.
Islande: Who rotates them when you’re not there?
#13: When I’m gone? The children, and my wife.
Jackly: When you say children… girls, boys?
#13: Yes, I have a little boy who rotates them, and I have another girl, plus my wife.
Jackly: OK.
#13: And then I have other friends I can send on errands.
Islande: But the girl rotates too?
#13: Yes, she does.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: The way women make people spend money, as soon as the money is made they hurry to ask for it.
Patisipan: Yes, all girls know how to rotate goats.
Islande: How long does it take for the goat to give birth?
#3: Five months.
Islande: Number 3, five months.
Islande: Five months for it to give birth?
#3: Yes, you breed it and it gives birth in five months.
Islande: OK, how long does the goat nurse?
#3: It might do it for three months, maybe more. There are goats that cut off the kids faster than others. There are goats that nurse two months and they’re in heat, they breed again. After three months they don’t want to nurse the baby any more, they give the little one a head butt.
Jackly: OK.
Islande: Do you use goat milk?
#3: We don’t have a goat that’s the kind for milking, but I have had goats with long udders that we got some milk out of.
Islande: When you were little?
#3: A big boy, it was my goat I milked.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: It gave me a bowl of milk. I could milk two goats, three goats, and I’d get a large can of milk.
Islande: Do others do it?
#3: People here don’t do it. They think it’s unclean, so when they get goat milk they boil it, but when they buy a can of milk they don’t know what they’re getting.
Islande: Hmm, especially the milk you get nowadays.
#3: You understand…
Islande: And who else milks their goats?
#13: Well, number 13, it’s like my friend said, I don’t do it but I know some places where they do.
Islande: Around here they don’t do it?
#3: No, they don’t. I say I won’t do it because the udders are underneath. Big goats have big udders, but when the young goats are ready to be tied that’s what you do, so they don’t get into people’s gardens. Their udders are hard.
#12: Goats might have udders, but cows are the ones you milk. I don’t milk goats.
#3: That lady said that?
#12: No, I don’t milk them.
#3: And…
#12: No, I don’t milk them.
#3: You don’t get young goats to milk?
#12: No, I have goats that have udders.
#3: Ma’am, you haven’t yet found a goat to milk.
#12: We’re waiting for another question.
Islande: At what age is a goat ready to be slaughtered? At what age do you find a goat is prepared, how long?
#3: Goat meat is good to eat at any age,.
Islande: Goat meat is going to be good to eat?
#3: At three months goat meat is good to eat, because it depends on the way the person cares for the goat in his pasture. There are goats that get to three months and they don’t resemble a goat, there are goats at three months, you can go sell them for good money.
Islande: Between buying a goat, between eating a goat that’s three months old and eating one that’s nine months old, is there a difference?
#3: No, but the one that has the most meat is better.
Islande: The meat is better?
#3: Yes, it’s more ripe.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: You’ll get more meat.
Islande: Yes, it’s better if its bigger. It’s bigger.
Jackly: Is the meat tastier?
#4: Yes.
Islande: Better, yes. Tastier.
#12: It’s tastier.
Islande: And better…
#4: Because there is more of it…
#12: It’s tastier because it’s more mature.
#3: When you take a young goat that’s still nursing I know the meat is not good.
#12: No, because the goat is more…
#12: The meat is tougher.
Islande: OK.
Jackly: Werewolves say the flesh of a child is tastier than an adult’s [at reference to the Haitian lougawou, a werewolf or witch thought to eat children, and commonly blamed for illnesses]
#3: My friends, there are goats that don’t develop properly, goats that don’t develop. You might kill a kid that is three months old, still following its mother, you slaughter a three-month-old goat and that’s the meat you eat.
Jackly: OK.
Islande: What do the goats around here eat? Or, what do you give the goats to eat in this area?
#3: Goats eat pikon, kwatemala, bwa patat, kòlkòl [all wild shrubs]
Islande: You never gave your number, number 3.
#3 : It’s still me. It’s still my same voice. (laughter) Number 3, cane leaves, corn husks.
Islande: OK, let the rest of the people give us the rest.
#3: Speak, sir.
Islande: Yes.
#3: It’s not only me that’s in the werewolves’ society [this is a play on the earlier reference to werewolves/witches]
(laughter)
Islande: Let’s discuss what other food you give the animals.
Jackly: Numer 11.
#11: You can use the goat, you can get it used to, give it the skins or husks of crops. You get it used to it…
Islande: Skins of cooked food, or raw?
#11: Skins of raw food.
Islande: Raw?
#11: Yes, you give it that, it gets used to eating it.
Islande: OK.
#8: Number 8.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#8: It eats bean husks, and there are goats that drink water because that’s good for it.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#8: Because its growing well.
Islande: There are goats that drink water. Or do all goats drink water?
#8: There are goats that drink water.
Islande: There are goats that don’t drink water?
#8: There are some that don’t drink water.
Islande: Well, all goats drink water, you just don’t give it to them. There are some you give water? There are some you don’t give water?
#8: Because sometimes when you leave the water, when you put out the water, there are goats that drink it and goats that don’t want the water.
#3: It depends on the food the goat is eating.
#9: Number 9, all goats drink water.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#9: When you tie a goat in the brush, it eats the food it finds.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#9: It eats and drinks water. It eats and at the same times consumes dew, that’s how it get’s water.
Islande: OK, now what to ask, is when you buy a goat in the market, the goat you buy, do you need, how should I put it… let me ask another way. The goats act in a way that lets the buyer see whether it’s sick. Do you know what they do that lets you know whether it’s sick or healthy?
Jackly: Meaning, if you come across a goat in the market…
Islande: Mmm hmm.
Jackly: And the goat is sick, will you be able to tell?
Islande: Will you recognize it?
Jackly: What can you touch or see in the goat to tell you?
Islande: To see whether it’s sick.
Jackly: That it’s a sick goat so you shouldn’t buy it?
#1: Number 1, sometimes you come across a goat and you stand and look it over, you choose the goat, and then you see that it will only lie down. When it’s walking it lies down, and you might notice it has bad diarrhea.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: You will see that it has diarrhea, and it’s not just that. You can see that it’s a sick goat. And you might notice marks, on its feet, maybe it got caught in a cord, or something hit it, and you will be able to see the damage to the goat.
Islande: How do you tell if it has been hit?
#1: No, it might…
Islande: Number 1.
#1: It has, number 1, it has four feet, you might notice that one, you look for what’s right and what’s not. You might notice on one foot that a cord cut it, so it has a scar on the foot.
Islande: What do you do with the goat, breed it?
#1: No, you have to find a way to do that…
Jackly: Breed it while you are raising it?
#1: Whatever is the best thing for you to do with it.
Islande: You feel it, inspect it with your hands?
#1: No, you don’t feel it, you go over it to figure out how it can benefit you, see if it’s sick, you look to see if it has a cut from where it was tied with a cord, or hit with a rock, or anything that might have hurt or sickened it.
Islande: OK.
Jackly: Where do you…
#4: Sometimes you get to the market to buy a goat and you see a goat you are considering buying has scratches on it.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#4: Little scratches on its ears, or the side, or little cuts, and you get it in your head that’s the reason the owner decided to sell it, but you can still buy it.
Islande: OK, who else wants to speak, nobody else?
Jackly: They also say you can squeeze the midsection to see if there are any secretions.
#12: Well, you can look to see if the goat has been beat up in any way. If all of its ribs are showing that’s not a goat you want to buy in the market. That’s a ruined goat.
Islande: Mmm hmm, and food, is there any food you prepare for the goats to fatten them up? The way you fatten a pig, you can make a mixture of breadfruit, fruit and vegetable peels. I don’t know a lot of the mixtures, they put salt in and give it to the pigs. Is there a mixture like that people give to goats?
#4: Number 4, we haven’t yet tried giving mixtures like that to our goats.
Islande: And none of you have done that? Yes, no?
Public: We don’t do that.
Islande: Exactly, what food, when you put the goats in it, have you noticed that they eat the most of?
#1: Zegwi.
Islande: Zegwi?
#1: Yes.
Islande: So, people were just telling me something, what zegwi are good for goats to eat ? All kinds of zegwi, unripe, or ripe?
Public: Ripe.
Islande: Ripe ones?
#12: Ripe ones are best for them.
#3: Too ripe is not good. Too unripe isn’t good either.
#12: If I put goats in unripe zegwi it can give them…
Islande: Number 12.
#12: Number 12.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#12: If I put the goat in unripe zegwi it gives it.
Islande: Mmm hmm, OK, there were others who were going to speak over there.
#13: Yes, I said…
Islande: First your number.
#13: Number 13.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#13: I said when a goat eats ripe food it’s better for it than unripe, that’s what I would add to what the ladies said.
Islande: Mmm hmm, and what food gives them, helps them develop fastest?
#8: For goats to grow best, you have to rotate them early in the morning when the dew’s still on the ground, and then let it eat well. It gets nice, ripe food, a good meal. It might have to move two or three times for that to happen. And if the food is nice and close the goat will develop well, fatten up nicely. It has to drink water, too, and it will develop normally.
Islande: OK, is like they say, if you give children tasty food they grow quickly? Is there a food like that you give the goats that makes them grow quickly?
#12: No.
#13: We tie them and feed them. We manage them.
Islande: Like when you need to fatten them up.
Jackly: Pigs, wheat bran.
#3: When the animal gets a nice mix, with potatoes in it, it has leaves in it, fronds, things you put in pig food, guinea grass, it will eat the long leaves, and it’s not just the goats, any animal will look better and get bigger faster.
Islande: Hmm, what do you do with the goats when it rains?
#4: When it rains we put the goats near the house. We make tents under banana trees for shelter.
Jackly: You don’t beat them.
#4: Don’t hit them, and then we make a little house and put them in it.
Islande: Mmm hmm, nobody else wants to respond?
#3: Same thing. We always have build something to put the goats in when it rains. We put them under the shelter, with a little earth under it where it can graze a little. If there’s no dogs around that are going to eat them we leave them there. You might find a rock overhang for shelte, put it there. If you put all the goats under something like that, only the ones you tie will stay there.
Islande: In your case, if you buy a lot of goats what do you do with them when there’s a storm?
#1: If I buy lots of goats what do I do with them in a storm?
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: Well, what I do, if I have had time to move them, I sell them.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: Now, I do the same thing with them, I tie them in the yard, and then I put them under a nice clean banana tree, I put up a little house so the weather won’t completely destroy them.
Islande: OK, when you buy the goat in the market how do you avoid mix-ups? How do you recognize your goat?
#1: My own goat?
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: How I recognize it.
Islande: The goat you bought in the market.
#1: Ah, sometimes we take a little paper, or tie a little cord around its neck.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: I mean, to identify it as yours. When you don’t do that and then right there you exchange it or sell it to a friend, you might not have time to put a mark on it.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: But the ones you keep, when they’re in the market you have to have a way to identify it as yours.
Islande: What else do I need to know?
#3: Number 3, I don’t need anything else as long as I have a paper for each goat.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: The paper identifies my goat as mine, and identifying marks are listed on the paper.
Islande: OK, what I need to know is when you are done, is there a little structure in the market where you can put every goat you buy in the market, or do you tie them? What do you do?
#1: No, you don’t have a little house…
Islande: Because each goat you buy you put it in it, or do you tie them? What do you do?
#1: No, you don’t have a little house.
Islande: Each goat, when you’ve bought it, do you take it with you when you go to buy another?
#3: Mmm hmm.
#1: You buy the goat in the market or if you’re selling in the market you can tie it in the back of the market, but if you are going to be going around in the market you take it with you, all of them, and then you make a little pen and tie all of the goats inside it.
Islande: OK, what market do you go to around here, to buy or sell goats? Where do you buy goats to resell?
#1: We buy in Previle, we sell in Lyon. We sell in Previle and we buy elsewhere. We sell in Previle… we buy in Milfo and we sell in Previle.
Public: You can buy in Previle and then turn there toward Antou.
#3: You can buy it in the market…
Islande: But you never return from Milfo with goats? You don’t go to buy and sell goats?
Public: Yes, yes.
#3: Yes, and transport is 500 to go up. We never need 210 more to go. *
Islande: When you go to sell goats in Milfò, where do you buy those goats?
#3: We buy anywhere. We can even buy them right there in Milfò.
#1: You can even buy in Milfò, too.
Islande: Where do goats sell at the highest prices?
Jackly: And cheapest.
#3: Mafran.
#1: You can say Mafran, Lyon.
Islande: Where do they sell cheapest?
#1: Sometimes we…
#3: The little market on the mountain.
#1: Little markets up on the mountain, and also Previle, Milfò.
#3: Dayè, Previle, Milfò.
Islande: Mmm hmm, in those markets they’re cheapest.
#3: Kastiyon, that’s farther away.
Islande: You go buy in Kastiyon, too?
#3: Yes.
#1: Me, I don’t go there.
#3: There are guys who don’t go.
Public: But some do.
Islande: Some do go?
Public: Yes.
Islande: The way we get to Kastiyon, we pass through the mountain up high.
#3: We go through Bwa Goch.
Islande: And then we climb the mountain.
#3: We cross like that. We don’t go all the way to Bwa Goch, we reach Seyèt.
Islande: Yes, yes.
#3: Once you pass the Catholic church, Seyèt is where it is.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: You cross the water, there’s water on the ground, you cross and go up where the water rises and then you climb the mountain and go all the way to Kastiyon.
Islande: You walk a long way. For an animal to leave Kastiyon to get here it walks a long way!
#3: No, but….
Islande: How do you carry, what do you do to get the animals here?
#3: If you buy, say, 10 goats, you lead them back, or drive them ahead of you….
#12: You buy solid goats.
#8: So they can walk fast.
#12: Yes, you don’t buy goats that are asleep on their feet. You buy solid goats that can walk.
Islande: Hmm.
#4: And then you lead, you lead two goats with a cord and the rest will follow them.
Islande: Do you take children with you to help lead the goats?
#4: Yes, sometimes you bring children or friends with you.
#3: You can’t find children when the market is on a school day.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#4: Sometimes you have a friend who’s doing the same thing, and you go together, as a team.
#3: You might have 20 goats together, 15 goats between you.
Islande: All together?
#4: Two men together, one leads in front and the other drives them from behind.
Islande: Hmm, OK, that way when you go to another market you lead them. You never put them on another animal to transport them?
#4: No.
Islande: Around here, do you buy goats, do you sell goats?
Public: Yes, yes.
Islande: But you haven’t spoken at all about markets around here?
Public: This little market, the market here, its the Previle market where we sell goats.
Islande: Ah, OK.
#8: This is La Ferme.
Islande: In the La Ferme market, do you sell goats here, or slaughter them to sell here?
Public: Yes, yes.
Islande: How many goats a week might you slaughter?
#3: There are…
Islande: Well, OK, when do you slaughter goats?
#3: They kill them Saturdays and Tuesdays, but there are days when they don’t slaughter any.
Islande: Mmm hmm, they slaughter them at certain times.
#3: This is a good time for it. It’s a good time, especially when there is breadfruit.
Islande: Mmm hmm, OK. When?
#3: People eat more of the meat in that season.
Islande: Hmm, you need meat to eat breadfuit?
#3: Yes.
Islande: When is goat meat most expensive in the market? In what season is goat most expensive in the market?
#8: In December.
Islande: In December?
#8: Yes.
#3: We’ve arrived at a time, business is slow, animals are cheaper, animals are cheap again.
Islande: Yes, there’s a time when it’s more expensive, that always happens.
Public: There’s a time, in May, July.
#3: When the harvest is ready.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: The price…
Islande: Goes up a little?
#4: There are children who have just made a little harvest, they need an animal to raise.
Islande: OK.
#3: When the harvest is ready, I’m saying.
#4: Yes when the harvest is ready.
Islande: OK, that’s when things are lowest?
Public: Around March.
Islande: When it’s….
Public: Around March.
Islande: In March?
Public: When March comes, when…
Islande: In the calm period?
#3: When the beans have been planted, around then you can see the beans flowering, that’s when animal prices go down a little.
#13: Number 13.
Islande: That’s when people who raise animals might go buy more.
Public: Yes, yes, that’s the time.
Islande: But since everyone’s going lower?
#13: Especially when school opens, the parents are burdened. Because they know the children must go to school, so you go to the market and take whatever little money you can get. The children have to go to school, so you get by with whatever you have.
Islande: OK, how do you see the goat business? The goats you keep, why do you have them?
#8: We keep goats as a sort of bank account. You might need money to pay for your children’s school, or some other thing, and you can sell a goat to pay tuition. But you can’t sell them all, you have to keep enough to breed more so you’ll always have one when you need it.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#4: Number 4, goats and school are intertwined. If you have a goat that’s ready to sell, or even if it’s not ready, you can take it and pay for school.
Islande: So, your goats are for paying for school?
#3: Yes. But you also use them in agriculture.
Islande: You use goats in agriculture?
#3: We use goats for agriculture, you see, because it’s a goat you sell so you can buy rum [to give to laborers], to pay day laborers [to prepare the soil], and when you need to harvest your crops.
Islande: OK.
#3 : If God grants you a good harvest you can get two more goats.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#1: Number 1.
#3: So every family can get enough food to eat.
#1: And you might have someone in your household who’s sick and needs a doctor, so you need money for their care. You sell a goat and you have money to care for them.
Islande: You were saying something, Jackly? Jackly you were saying something?
Jackly: Hmm, me? No.
Islande: OK, does anyone have anything to add? OK, if I’m understanding, goats are a foundation of the local economy.
#3: Yes, important.
Islande: If I’m hearing everyone… you were saying something, number 3?
#3: Yes, we’re saying goats are very important, because it’s not easy for a poor person to keep goats.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#8: Number 8.
#3: Because he has to keep them through every misstep, everywhere.
#8: A lot of us had goats, but Hurricane Mathew killed them, the things goats gave us they’re not getting at the moment, because a lot of animals died after Mathew.
Islande: Mmm hmm, OK, let me ask each of you how many goats you have grazing, not all animals, just goats. Let me start with number 4. How many goats in your pasture?
#4: Number 4, I have three goats grazing.
Islande: And you, number 7?
#7: Well, I don’t have any. Mathew destroyed what I had.
Islande: OK, number 12.
#12: Well, it left me with one, because I don’t have much.
Islande: OK, How many in your pasture, number 3?
#3: Well, I’m not keeping any goats now. I just have one pig. I don’t keep goats.
Islande: Number, what number, what number?
#6: Number 6.
Islande: Mmm hmm, you have three goats you’re grazing.
#8: I don’t have any. Mathew killed them.
Islande: OK, and you?
#11: I just have one.
Islande: Number 11, what’s your number, sir?
#9: I just have one. It has two kids.
Islande: OK, number 1.
#1: I don’t have any. I have sheep.
Islande: OK, number 13.
#13: Right now I have seven.
Islande: Seven, OK, and looking at the whole area, if we’re talking about someone who’s a major goatherder.
Jackly: How many goats might that person have?
Islande: How many goats would that person have?
#3: There are no major goatherders here any more. They have declined.
Islande: Yes, even if they’ve declined there are people who have more.
#3: Let me tell you, schooling has gobbled them up, the storm has killed them. You’ll find people keeping two or three goats, four goats, or more.
Islande: And you?
#3: But the goat business has declined, totally.
#12: Number 12, there are no goats, there are no goats.
Islande: Number 12, there are no goats?
#12: Yes, there were goats but the weather killed them.
#3: Goats have declined.
#4: Number 4.
Islande:Who’s talking? Number 4.
#4: No, the bad weather has left people with hardly any goats. A single person lost 30 goats.
Islande: OK, is it easy to know how many goats a person in the area lost… how many did the person who lost the most lose in the storm?
#12: There are people who lost 16 goats…
Islande: Among the people we heard say they lost goats, the highest number, like people said they lost 10 goats, or 20 goats. There was one who talked about losing 30 goats, 30 is the highest, you understand?
#4: Like the person who lost 30 goats, some were in the hands of someone who kept them for him.
#3: Yes, he lost a few.
Islande: Well, they were still his goats. And no one had more? The person with the most, how many goats might he have?
Public: Yes, there were people who had more goats. You might not know. I can tell you a gentleman higher up lost 34 goats, goats and sheep.
#13: Some you won’t know about because not everybody talks to you.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#13: That’s somebody else he’s talking about.
Islande: Well, what have you heard yourselves?
Public: Me, that’s what I’ve heard.
#3: Let me say something, raising livestock… number 13… livestock is something a person does here in herds, like they’ll have a herd of goats.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: When they want to sell, they’ll come buy goats from me.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: You won’t know his business. You might see he has two goats with him, yet he has one in the hands of every other person there, or two in the hands of each person who’s there.
Islande: When they die you’ll know how many he had.
#3: If he’ll tell you, he’ll tell you.
Islande: Yes.
#3: If he won’t tell you, you won’t know. That lady had two goats. The goats died, but if you don’t know they’re hers you won’t know she lost them.
Islande: OK, that’s what happened.
#3: That’s how it is around here, people don’t know other people, so they might not know whether a person has animals. You can’t say he has none, you can’t say if he has them. You can say you know the person but don’t know how many animals they have.
Islande: OK, with this group, we can say that a large percentage of you don’t have goats at the moment?
#3: You see.
Islande: What keeps you, if you see goats as important livestock, what keeps you from raising goats?
#8: The thing that prevents us is that we lack the means to buy goats.
Islande: Mmm hmm, is there nobody else who wants to answer?
#3: But that’s a question, it’s a response for everybody.
Islande: Yes, but another question I’d like to ask is… If I have a goat, for example, I have a goat, and a cow, and a sheep, and a pig, and two or three chickens, why wouldn’t I say, a disase could come, I have a cow and I’ll put the rest of my money in goats. That way I know if people need goats in the area I can go to this gentleman’s house, or that lady’s house, I’ll find goats to buy, has that never occurred to you, for each of you to take your money and pool it to buy a portion of something? Has that ever happened?
#13: That hasn’t happened, because the way it works is everybody puts a portion of what they have in each thing.
Islande: In each thing?
#3: In each type.
Jackly: Why do you think each person puts a little portion into each thing?
Islande: In each type?
#3: Why?
Islande: Yes, why do you do that?
#3: I can tell you, a little advantage in that is, you’re a farmer and you keep a pig. You have other things but the pig is what’s for eating. You have grass on your land that the pig won’t eat, so you keep another animal for the grass. If you have a mule you can carry things with it.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#3: That’s why we can’t do it. People might have two head of cattle, maybe two pigs. He sells them to buy a herd of goats, he just has goats. That’s all he does. You can’t do that here. You’ll lose too much money in a lot of other things.
Jackly: OK.
#3: Because when you have pumpkin squash on your, property what are you going to do with it? Are you going to find people to buy it? When you pick a bunch of taro, what are you going to do with all of the greens? Pumpkin won’t grow in their place. What are you going to do with it all? Do you need the pig?
Jackly: OK.
#3: But you have to keep the pig someplace. You can’t walk it to the pasture when it’s full of grass. You need another animal to eat that grass.
Islande: (laughter)
Jackly: What you’re saying is important. A lady was saying…
Islande: Number 12.
#3: Sometimes.
Jackly: Listen.
#3: Sometimes you might have a cow. Not your own, one someone gave you to care for. There’s a time it reproduces, if the man’s wife has a baby it’s like she has a garden in the house every morning.
Jackly: The milk, yes.
#3: You understand? He can drink it, or sell it, then buy something else with the money.
Jackly: Number 12.
#12: That means if you keep a goat you tie the it in part of the pasture. If you have 2, 3 goats that you’re going to let loose on somebody else’s land, a neighbor, when they get there the neighbor won’t help you release the goats in his garden, if you’re not putting a herd there. He won’t help you put them there, so you can’t be just a goat keeper.
Jackly: Ok, the answer number 3 gave is like one a lady gave, almost the same. Yours is really more dense. She says, for example, there’s a problem when you have a chicken to sell, you don’t have to sell a goat. She says when you have a problem you need to sell a cow to solve, a chicken or a goat won’t do the trick for you. OK, that’s the reason she gave, but your reason, and this is the first time we’ve heard it, there are things you need to do that you can’t do with a pig, you need a mule. There’s grass, too, that are for mules to eat. Thank you for that response. Does anybody have anything to add to it?
#13: It’s difficult for someone to keep all one thing. You always need a little bit of each thing.
Jackly: OK, let’s move on.
Islande: OK, does anybody here kill goats?
Public: Kill a goat under what conditions?
Islande: No, kill a goat. Who slaughers goats?
#12: Ha! A butcher.
Jackly: The butcher?
#8: Butcher?
Islande: Hmm!
#3: No, there’s no butcher.
Islande: Who is the person who slaughters goats for food in your household?
Public: Oh! Yes.
#4: I kill the goats at my house.
Islande: Oh! And who is the person who slaughters the goats to eat. You do?
#3: Yes.
Islande: Who else here slaughters goats?
Public: Yes.
Islande: Do you slaughter goats for your neighbors, or other people?
Public: No, I slaughter my own goats.
Islande: OK, does anybody call in somebody else to come slaughter your goats for you?
Public: I don’t call in other people, I have people who can slaughter them in my household.
Islande: In the area, how do you hear when somebody’s slaughtering a goat?
Jackly: When they kill a goat, what do they give the person who does it?
Islande: How much money do they give the person, or what do they give the person?
Jackly: Or what do they give?
#3: When, for example, when they give birth in the countryside, the husband has to have a goat so he can take care of the wife, to have money for the baby. We don’t know about that.
Jackly: What?
#3: It’s up to the husband to have a goat to slaughter so he can take care of his wife while she’s confined in bed.
Public: No, what we need… to see the goat…
#4: Do people call you to come kill a goat.
Islande: Mmm hmm!
#4: There are people who have someone come to slaughter a goat, and them give them a piece of the animal.
Islande: Mmm hmm!
Jackly: OK.
#4: As payment.
Jackly: As payment.
Islande: As compensation. OK, is there another…
#4: After that, you might get a little something.
Islande: Like what?
#4: Another little piece of meat, like the neck, to lift my spirits.
Islande: Mmm hmm!
#4: And then after that they give me another little piece. (laughter)
Jackly: OK.
Islande: But they don’t pay them, they give them the neck?
Public: Yes. They don’t give them money.
Jackly: But a goat’s neck, how much do those sell for around here?
Islande: They don’t sell them in that case?
Public: They can, if it’s part of the little bit of meat you get. (laughter)
Islande: So, let me say something. If the person slaughters two goats, do they get two necks?
Public: No, they give him the whole neck (laughter). They split it and give him one side.
Islande: Ah, they don’t give him the whole neck?
#4: They give him a piece of it.
#3: No, they don’t give him the whole neck.
Jackly: There are places where they give you the neck.
Islande: Are there places where they give the whole neck, instead of a piece?
Jackly: If the person kills 10 goats he gets 10 necks (laughter). That’s the butcher that does that.
Islande: Number 7 is speaking, let him speak.
#7: If you call someone to come do you a favor, you might not know how to kill an animal, you might call someone to come and slaughter it for you. It’s a favor they’re doing for your household.
Islande: OK.
#7: You can cut the neck and give them a piece of it.
Islande: Mmm hmm!
#7: He takes it home. If you want to give him a little something more, you do.
Islande: OK.
#4: A butcher, when he does it for you it’s not a favor. He comes to do a job, which means you give him the neck as payment.
Islande: Yes.
#3: The butcher doesn’t get the neck. They cut if right here, like that, with the head and neck, that’s the prie for a young little goat.
#7: Yes, the head is the price of a little goat. They give the person a piece of meat, then the gentleman says he works for money, and they choose a little something to give the person so he’ll go home.
#3: And if he steals some little bits of tripe he can take those, too. (laughter) That’s the only job that is not detestable. Yes, it’s the only thing that’s not detestable about it.
#12: Yes, there was one person who died around here.
#3: What happened?
#4: A commotion.
#3: Ah, what did you get… ?
#4: Well, the person who died…
Islande: Are there women who sell cooked food? Who cooks food to sell?
#3: That’s for marketwomen to do, sell a big pot of rice.
Islande: Mmm hmm! Do they make sauce with it?
#3: They make their little herring sauce.
Islande: Mmm hmm. They don’t make a sauce with goat?
#3: No.
#13: They don’t have anything to make goat sauce with. (laughter)
#3: It won’t work out well for the marketwoman.
Islande: The way 13 put it, that’s something very important!
#3: She would have to find people to come buy, who would pay her. People here won’t come to buy.
Islande: OK.
#3: People will buy something for 10 gourdes, 15 gourdes.
Islande: Ah?
#3: For 20 gourdes. To get the fire going, cook food, you’d have to give the person 20 gourdes for them to put goat in it.
Islande: OK, is there a market around here where they slaughter goats to sell, to butcher and sell?
#3: Cut up the meat? Yes.
Islande: Goat?
Public: Yes, yes.
Islande: How many do they slaughter when there is a market?
#8: Number 8.
Islande: Hmm.
#8: There are two butchers, three sometimes when things are busy. Each kills one goat. There are three I know who slaughter.
Islande : Goats.
#8: But there are times when they don’t all slaughter anything. Sometimes just two do. They slaughter goats, pigs. When there’s business, but when there’s no activity each might kill one.
Jackly: How often is there business? When you say there is business, when there’s a holiday?
#8: When there’s beans, or coffee. At harvest time.
#3: Listen to her big words! Coffee?
Public: And then in corn season.
#8: Corn season.
#4: When Mathew hadn’t yet taken, hadn’t yet destroyed people’s yams, when the season arrived when they were ready, number 4 speaking, when they were ready and people needed to buy food, meat was the only thing they bought.
Islande: Spices, salt.
#4: The butcher would slaughter a pig in the morning, and then he’d watch, and send for a goat he had in his depot. He’d kill it, and then people would buy meat to cook at home. Things were beautiful in town, beautiful on the outskirts of town, but since Mathew came through everything has faded. That’s something we can’t forget.
Islande: OK, I guess I’m finished, but I have one last question. How do you eat goat meat? Before I ask how you eat goat, when they kill the goat, what do they do with the horns?
#4: The horn?
Islande: Mmm hmm!
#4: So, I know they grate the goat’s head, and then they take off the horn and discard it. The skin around the horn and throw it away.
Islande: They leave the klidoub bone.
#4: They take it out to boil it.
Islande: Mmm hmm! It’s the same for everybody? I noticed you haven’t answered.
Public: Yes, yes, that’s the way it is.
Islande: OK, and when they slaughter the goat, how do they kill it? Do they cut it or skin it?
#3: They skin it. There are no more pigs. The same people who need the hide for drums, they skin their own. When that’s done, they put it outside for somebody to buy it. (laughter)
Islande: And then they can’t find one.
#3: There’s not just one society that does that. You have to cut it to get the hide, then to buy the hide from another one. It’s a little something you get out of it, but I haven’t. (laughter)
Islande: OK.
Jackly: Last question.
Islande: Mmm hmm! How do you eat the goat?
Jackly: What are the different ways you can eat a goat?
Islande: Mmm hmm, what different ways.
#3: Hmm.
Jackly: There are several ways a person can eat goat meat. What are the differences?
#8: Number 8.
Islande: Mmm hmm!
Jackly: Fry it…
#8: There are people who like boiled meat. It has more vitamins.
Jackly: Mmm hmm.
#8: There are people who fry meat. They don’t fry it dry, they fry it. Me, I like boiled meat. It has more vitamins. It’s better for me.
Jackly: That’s two, OK, fried and boiled. Are there no other ways?
#3: Me, I like my meat in a soup. I eat that or any fried meat, that’s what I like.
Jackly: There are places where they say they make stew, ragout. Do they do that around here?
#8: Yes.
Jackly: How do they make it? What’s that thing they call kowosòl?
Public: Kowosol, that’s it.
#8 They don’t cook that separately.
#3: You close it when it’s time to…
#3: It has liquid in it. It’s no joke. It’s food for old people.
Islande: Do you ever put in dried meat, when they slaughter a goat, you don’t want to wind up disliking it.
Jackly: Meat gets wasted.
Islande: Meat gets wasted, you discard it.
#3: My friend, the business of heating up meat, that’s something that creates problems. When I was a baker, I could slaughter an animal and some wouldn’t get cooked there. I had no refrigerator, I just put it in hot water over a fire, and put in the meat. In the end, you go into the bakery, he took two hours, and in the end you wrap it in whatever clothes you have, put it into a suitcase and travel wherever you want with it.
Jackly: Dry?
#3: When you cook it, it gets sweet. It doesn’t go bad but sometimes they put it in the sun or the fire, so the rest of the animal would get wasted.
Jackly: Yes.
#3: That’s why when an animal dies like that they get it, I cook my part and I don’t eat anything else. I eat my part and when I’m done I stop.
(laughter)
#3: Because last time somebody sent meat to the house, my friend, since we’re not old people, and old people don’t’ beat old people, you’re not supposed to take it. They wouldn’t give it to you. An animal is slaughtered and you give people some of the meat, and then you take the rest. It’s not an illness the person has brought you!?
#8: When you have a freshly slaughtered animal it gives you vitamins. When the meat has been there a while it starts to emit an odor. Then it’s not good any more. That meat has expired. Me, if I slaughter a goat, I kill it to use it. The tripe won’t last, but I’ll wash the goat meat well, bring out my big pot, spice my goat meat, boil it. Then I let it cool off, and put it in a cooking pot, and whenever I need it I take a little piece and I make food. If I just leave it it spoils. It starts to smell and it’s not good any more.
Islande: How long can you leave it in the cooking pot?
#8: Until the meat has finished boiling and cooled off. After that you put it in a separate pot, if you don’t have a refrigerator.
Islande: How long does it last? Will it last a week?
#8: That depends. That depends.
Islande: Can it last a week, can it last three days?
#3: You should eat it the next day, God willing.
#8: If you’re brave you can eat it over two days.
#13: It cooks all day, and gets eaten.
#8: You eat and eat!
Islande: Number 12.
#12: Me, I cut it up and put it on the fire. Then I add salt, I put orange in it. Then I put the meat on the fire. I make the fire bigger. When you first start a fire you don’t make the flames big.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#12: If I have chicken I don’t make a big fire. When you have meat and you don’t make a big fire the meat might stay on a long time and get dried out. When you add leaves to the fire it gets smokey. The meat lingers on the fire and gets yellowed. That meat can stay in the house so there will be meat.
Jackly: OK.
Islande: That’s the way they do it. When the meat has been dried, how do you cook it?
#12: That meat isn’t cooked. You don’t boil it. You cook meat like that as if it were fresh.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#12: You don’t boil it. If you are making it like fresh meat you will soak it.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#12: Put it under water and soak it, then it will get softer. Then wash it and put it on the fire. But it will have a salty taste still.
Islande: OK.
#12: You can boil meat like that with congo beans, you put it under the beans.
Islande: You put it under beans. That’s what I wanted to say. OK. Thank you very much. I don’t know if you have any other experiences you could share about goats. Are there any questions I have not asked that are important?
#8: Number 8.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#8: I like goat a lot. Since Hurricane Mathew I haven’t had any goats. I would like to have goats again. But it’s hard to come up with the money, because when you plant beans they grow, and you don’t get anything out of it. You get the minimum you should get out of it. Crops can’t do anything for me. Since Mathew we’ve had nothing, to raise livestock or grow crops.
Islande: OK, number 12.
#12: You asked a question a bit ago, you asked how much it costs to buy a goat around here, but those goats are expensive. I puny little goat coasts 900 dollars (4500 gourdes), for a tiny goat. But that doesn’t mean goats are a big deal.
Islande: Yes. Nobody wants to say anything else?
#13: Well, I’d simply like to thank you.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#13: For this nice meeting.
Jackly: Mmm hmm. You may speak.
#13: But as the lady said, since Mathew you could say we lost our goats. There are people who have nothing, others only make it with great effort. People might just have one. When you hear one has been born, it can’t develop, can’t grow. Some die while they are still following their mother.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
#13: I don’t know the objective, but if you can help us… even though I don’t know what you’ve come here to do.
Islande: But, no. I told you earlier that our objective is to try to understand more about goats. It’s not a case where we need to know more about goats and then we’re going to give away goats. That’s not it. If things get better with the goats, this is an effort to see what you should do then.
Jackly: OK, the bosses will hear what you said in the report. After the report there are several possibilities. They will hear your complaints. It’s impossible for an institution to do everything you’ve mentioned. And we can’t say what they will do because it’s not our decision.
Islande: Mmm hmm.
Jackly: So, we have been talking to you for research for a big client. All that’s left is to thank you for participating, and congratulate you. This has been a real success. And it’s already late in the afternoon! Thank you, thanks very much.
Public: Thank you very much, too.
